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culuyetille) wrote2006-05-16 10:46 pm
Of the propriety of slash
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*sighs* Why is it that someone just has to bitch about slash every once in a while? Oh yeah right, to stir a discussion. I must admit, though, that what's on the post she refers to, the "legal aspects", are at least a bit new in terms of complaints. Usually we just get the good ol' "ur eeebil!!!11one!! burn in hell for writing hotmensex u pervs". Speaking of which, our campaign to make hotmensex a LJ interest hasn't been very active lately... I've even made a few icons to try and expand the luff ;]
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Back to the matter at hand. The main points addressed on that post are:
a. Whether or not the celebrities portrayed in RPS consented to the use of their names and images, and how that should be addressed legally
b. What sort of measures were taken to restrict access to slash content in websites, and in particular here at LJ.
My thoughts, honestly, are first and foremost: "oh for heaven's sake, mind your own effing slash-less lives, will you."
Concerning a, I think if anyone were to say anything, it'd have to be Viggo, Sean, Orlando, Karl, Elijah, Dom, Billy, etc. I can't say they're not offended; just the same, the people concerned with their honour & public image can't say for sure that they are offended by slash fanfiction featuring their names, so there's really nothing to discuss there.
As for b. Several arguments arose on the comments following the post in question, making me think about a lot more than what was originally being discussed. Some were really fruitful, such as slash as a means of women protesting against being sexually repressed by society. It seems odd and out of context when thrown in a discussion, but when we consider that the vast majority of slash writers & readers are females (their sexual options not relevant), the observation becomes very expressive. ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif){kind=small}
waenelin says,
Here on the LJ's - as far as i could see - gay pairings are described with explicit details, the synopsis being in most cases nothing but an excuse for depicting sexual scenes.
Why shouldn't we enjoy erotic material? Why should it be frowned upon? What's it to anyone if we enjoy producing/viewing artistic work involving a male gay couple? Sex is a very healthy and delicious part of being alive, not to be sanctioned. If we want to share our porn-ish artistic production with people who share the same interests, I believe that doesn't pertain to anyone else.
But we needn't even drift that far. Not all slash is PWP. A fair amount of it is dedicated to romantic involvement with all its angst and fluff, and there's of course the large portion of kink-inclined readers, writers and artists (more present in the Harry Potter fandom). It's sad prejudice to consider its very existence wrong. As if it were something we should be ashamed of enjoying! That's what sickens, saddens and worries me the most. Some claim to be "offended" by the very existence of slash, or that the celebrities portrayed may be hurt by it. What about, we get hurt being referred to as freaks whose likings offend "normal" people?
EDIT: which is why, as Caro mentioned bellow, I chose not to overlook this discussion yet again. It's not that I care about what other people think about slash, or those who like it. It's just that I am tired of being looked down at, and if I don't stand up for me, who will? If they're entitled to their own opinion, and to expressing it, they must be prepared to hear some biting back.
..in the end, these discussions always have slashers saying that we mean no harm and are just doing this for pure entertainment, while anti-slashers say it's still disrespectful to the portrayed people or the author, when it's FPS, and to the people who accidentally stumble upon it, etc, etc. *shrugs*
It often makes me look away. It's not a call for reasoning, it's more of a "what you do can't be accepted and you should be embarrassed and try to hide it as best as you possibly can." Self-censorship on our personal weblogs. I'm not for children's free access to everything, but I truly don't think there's a way around it, and frankly, I don't want to restrict myself in any way in my "personal space" - f-locking is just that. It falls to parents to handle their children's education, not to me. I have a Livejournal account to indulge in my hobbies, one very proeminent of which is slash. Pieces of fanart and fanfiction can have warnings and disclaimers, and that's about the closest to legal concern it'll get, because that's very very far from our primary objective here: having fun.
Plain and simple, We cannot control access any more than any other pornography source. If a person stumbles upon a slash-oriented website, they're very likely to find themselves looking at huge warnings that are very difficult to miss, of the likes of "This community deals with male/male themes, often with graphic descriptions. Please don't enter if you're under the age of consent". How hard can it be to hit the "back" button on one's browser?
Finally, after a few years, it even gets boring when someone criticizes slash and people start discussing the merits of both sides. Self-quoting on a conversation with a friend earlier today:
When a person writes and posts something like that, they're not trying to broaden their view of the world. They're bitching about what they don't like. And it's just that simple. We'll keep on thinking we have every right to enjoy slash as we find best, and they'll keep believing it isn't so. And, so I say we shrug and let them complain, we've got more pleasant things to busy ourselves with. If they really wanted to know anything about slash, they'd read some.
What's fundamentally wrong with these people? There's no slash in their colourless, dull little lives. ;] What's wrong with me? I let myself be annoyed.
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*huggles*
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Passing on by is a habit that, sadly, is only cultivated by people when what's to be done requires a great effort to change something that really matters (such as social problems in Africa). When all there's to do is bitching about simple things that don't interfere directly with anybody who doesn't dedicate actively to it, then of course bypassing the issue becomes impossible.
*luffs your icon*
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Shall wait anxiously for what you have to say!! =]
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I hope I’ll be able to answer to your post today. If not, there’s always the weekend, right? :)
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Well, if it helps, that makes two of us. I'm constantly feeling sorry for myself, but education & consideration for others keep me quiet most of the time. So in truth I don't really feel guilty when I bitch randomly about something that bothers me, because I think it kinda evens out all the time I'm not bitching out loud. Erm. Not making much sense here, I guess...
the really important thing to say is:
YOUR PACKAGE ARRIVED TODAY!!!!!!
Thank you so much!!!!! It was a very sweet surprise, you have me all fuzzy inside. You're too kind, darling!!! I shall listen to both cds in the car tomorrow. ^______________________________________________________^ (that's a huge grin, btw). And the letter, you were still writing "Someday You Will Be Loved". I really, really want to listen to that song. I can't say thank you enough *squishes* So I think I'll leave it to Ewan to show how happy I am (he always does a really wonderful job of that! *g*):
Thanks, hon!
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Oh my! *sighs in relief* I'm SO GLAD it finally arrived! Phew! I was really starting to get worried over here, because it took...a week, I think. Maybe a bit more. Even though I sent it via air mail. Great news. *beams* I think, I would've been crushed, if it'd gotten lost on the way.
:) I just wanted to "tell" you what I was talking about when I wrote "Someday You Will Be Loved" or "I Will Follow You Into The Dark". The latter unfortunately isn't about Eric and Orlando at all, but that song wouldn't have fitted these two as good as the pairing I finally chose for that songfic, but... Yeah, well. Rambling again. I, personally, like "I Will Follow You Into The Dark" a wee bit better - the song, not the story - but both songs are two of my all time favourites. :)
As for "The Hound Of The Baskervilles"...Well, like I said, Caro didn't like it much, because it's not her kind of music and I love it to pieces. So...Tell me what you're thinking. :)
*hugs and kisses*
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*cries*
Did you notice that photobucket deleted your Beanie icon? WTF??no subject
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LOL, so true. I've been thinking along your lines of "jeez, this is the same kind of discussion we have in this community every half year" and didn't feel like commenting on the debate alltogether, because frankly all has been said before. But somehow this sentence of yours has reminded me that I probably shouldn't stay silent even if the anger and hurt I read in your and other people's post is something I don't feel (after having had this discussion so many times I guess I just am thick skinned or something). But staying silent could be viewed as silently supporting her pov and I certainly don't. "Freedom of speech" obviously isn't only a right but an obligation and I should be standing up and be proud and everything :). - Sorry for the rambling here, thinking out loud and probably not making much sense *g*.
Good to hear you're all right and the situation in Brasil seems to be under control.
And I love the hotmensex icon (you forgot to make one with naked Bean, though. Just saying ;)).
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Precisely, darling. I've been into slash for something like 6 years now so I've seen even too many discussions. Funny thing is, have you ever noticed that the smartest ones always seem to be on the pro-slash side? Really. The ones with the best arguments (unlike my disjointed ramblings above). It amuses me to no end. We could have a campaign, "Slash: all the smart kids are doing it" or some such. XDD
You're making a lot of sense. I'd grown insensitive to their ramblings, like, 'yeah, yeah, you're free to think whatever you like, I'm indeed the devil, BOO.' But sometimes... it just gets under my skin that my preferences are treated as some form of character flaw, that I should, at best, indulge in secretly, and then whip myself in shame. I want to be 'out and proud', at least around here on the internet, where I come nearly exclusively to have slashy fun. ..I'm not sure how I'd behave if someone were to confront me with it in RL, though. Very touchy issue. I guess I'd try to be true to myself, and wouldn't deny anything, but rather demand the respect that I deserve.
*curls up to think about it*
LOL, I'll make a Beanie icon, dear. *hugs*
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credit: image pilfered from Emi.
;]
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These discussions do seem to pop up regularly in various fandoms. Every 6 months or so someone brings it up again... It's like the yearly chan-discussion in Harry Potter fandom.
I think the problem is that these 'offended' people see it as their duty to change the world so that it fits into their own view of it, their own perfect model. Anything that goes against that is challenging that model, and they take it personally. Suddenly, they dress themselves up in shiny and pure armour, grabs the sword of righteousness and rides out on a crusade upon the trusty steed Morality. And it is a crusade, because anyone who doesn't agree with them or who doesn't renounce their ways and convert to the one true opinion is a person that they will attack.
It's rather annoying to watch, and I get so tired of it. But, when it comes to the chan-discussion, I will speak up every time, because I think it's frightening when people confuse fiction with reality.
And to get back to the topic of your post: I get growly when people say that fic has to have a deeper meaning, bring a higher message... If we want to write or read filthy, kinky porn, then let us! That is an expression of our freedom as women. To read the things that turn us on without thinking about if it's appropriate or if a 'nice girl' uses words like these. That we are seen as abnormal for it is just another way to try to control us, our behaviour, and our sexuality.
So there! *g* We can always throw that back at the offended ones: don't you opress me! ;-)
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*rolls-eyes* Oh yes. It's rather annoying to watch, and I get so tired of it. But, when it comes to the chan-discussion, I will speak up every time, because I think it's frightening when people confuse fiction with reality. I couldn't agree with you more. It gets tiring, but in the end, we must always gather the energy for one more stand-up. Else all the other times we've worn ourselves out would've been in vain. We're always willing to explain things to those who misunderstand, such as mixing chan fanfiction with real child pornography - MAJORLY frowned upon. But, I've decided that I will be respected, and shall work for that. Even if it means having an annual go at the anti-slashers.
let us! That is an expression of our freedom as women. To read the things that turn us on without thinking about if it's appropriate or if a 'nice girl' uses words like these. That we are seen as abnormal for it is just another way to try to control us, our behaviour, and our sexuality.
*nods-nods-nods* We want to breathe. We're indulging in our pleasures in our own space, not involving unwilling thirt parties or harming anyone in any way. And that's that, no-one can have a say on it.
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Concerning a, I think if anyone were to say anything, it'd have to be Viggo, Sean, Orlando, Karl, Elijah, Dom, Billy, etc. I can't say they're not offended;
Actually, you can be sure they are not offended ;-)
Karl, Elijah, Dom and Billy,Craig and Sir Ian have no objections against slash and/or erotic art by fans.
You can read the quotes here (http://waenelin.livejournal.com/8020.html?thread=49492#t49492).
They are all from the website TheOneRing.net, the quote from Sir Ian is from his own website.
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Thanks for the link, and for dropping by ^_^ I was mostly venting, but it's good to know that other people share some of the feelings. I didn't want to reply directly at
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I refuse to be looked down at for reading slash, and I don't think Viggo needs some fan to protect his "cyber virtue" as someone called it ;-)
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here by way of eenoogje
1. These people have money. In some cases a hell of a lot of it. They have access to public relations teams if they want them and Gods know they can afford really good lawyers. The idea that they need fans to protect them not only implies that they're helpless.
2. Being sexy and using that to promote themselves is part of their jobs. Orlando wouldn't be where he is if people didn't think he was hot as hell and even someone as concerned with acting as a craft as Viggo knows that part of his draw is his physical presence. To imply they never thought of this is to say that they are both ignorant and stupid.
3. This is the one that gets me as a lesbian. By raising such a huge fuss about slash and saying it might damage an actor's reputation if someone thought it was true, the protester is saying that there's something so wrong with even being called gay that even someone misinterpreting a clearly marked piece of fiction is disastirous. Two things about the Rings guys and teh gay a) they really don't care what people think giving the snogging that went on in various places, and b) if they had issues, those were probably challenged working day in and day out with Sir Ian.
Re: here by way of eenoogje
You couldn't have made better points. On 1&2: It's annoying and insulting when people take up the defense of someone who has never actually asked for it. (and I'll just stop there, else I'd go all political and that's not the matter at hand) Wouldn't the world just be nicer if people could mind their own business.
(I love your icon, btw. ^____^)
And about 3, you're so right. To think that even being fictionally portrayed as gay could be disastrous is a horrible tentacle of homophobia, one of the saddest shapes of intolerance. It's... it's just godawful and very offending. *aggravated* Thanks for commenting.
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Yes, you're right. ...going head first into the ordeal never really seems to better anything, so most of the time we just learn to turn a blind eye. Occasionally it gets under my skin, though, and I feel I should at least make a stand - not really participating into the discussion, but just stating which side I'm on, what I think, and that I won't be silent.
Lovely Vig icon! *falls in love all over again* And, I've paid your journal a visit and friended right back :)
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Then: Your icons are GREAT! *grabs Ewan and runs away*
And then...Well, I’ve just written in my LJ that (and I’m sorry to quote myself here, but I can’t put it any other and/or better way) if I’d known there’s such a discussion every once in a while, I wouldn’t have posted the link. Seems like everybody’s pretty much used to that kind of “anti-slash” posts. Maybe that’s a good thing, because we’re all still here, right? So it proves that nobody on LJ has taken notice up until now, or if he/she did, had decided not to take actions against it. (Though imo one should rather take actions against
Why shouldn't we enjoy erotic material? Why should it be frowned upon? What's it to anyone if we enjoy producing/viewing artistic work involving a male gay couple? Sex is a very healthy and delicious part of being alive, not to be sanctioned. If we want to share our porn-ish artistic production with people who share the same interests, I believe that doesn't pertain to anyone else.
And did you notice that she didn’t say a word about porn IN GENERAL, but that everything she said was against SLASH? I mean, as far as I know the internet is still the number one media to spread porn, erotic material, however you want to call it. And not only gay porn, but also (and I think still first and foremost) het. Plus zillions of (imo) worse things like gang-rapes or...hell, I don’t know, sodomy or whatever. You can find pretty much EVERYTHING on the net, so why is she only talking about slash?
Maybe you’d want to take another look at my post, because
What about, we get hurt being referred to as freaks whose likings offend "normal" people?
And what’s “normal” anyway? Sorry, but I’d really like to have a definition of that word, because I don’t think in our times it’s that easy to say. Is it “normal” to work like a dog 24/7, to come home, eat and sleep to start all over the next day? For years? To not take a few days off, because you have a flu and go to work instead, because you’re afraid of losing your job, if you don’t? Hm...
And I can completely second everything else you wrote, dear. *smooches*
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LOOL I'm glad you like the icons!! A Beanie one has just been added *g* Orli is next on my list, and Jared ;] And maybe if you have a suitable picture, Eric too? And are you joining us?
Oh, dear, don't worry. The discussion happens every once in a while because it's a relevant issue. It's good that you posted the link. You wouldn't be quiet about something that bothers/offends you, and that's great. You're letting other people know about it, and they might be concerned as well.
About LJ taking notice, well, I guess if they were to ban slashers, their accounts number would drop dramatically. This is free reign for sharing hobbies and interests that don't harm other people, after all ;]
And did you notice that she didn’t say a word about porn IN GENERAL, but that everything she said was against SLASH?
Yes, I did. ...it's just so infuriating. It's pure prejudice. And I'll go read what
What I hadn't seen is that she used the word offensive when talking about the presence of slash in actor-related communities. That seriously pissed me off, and hadn't I just rambled my heart out, I'd have a go at that too.
And what’s “normal” anyway? Sorry, but I’d really like to have a definition of that word, because I don’t think in our times it’s that easy to say. Is it “normal” to work like a dog 24/7, to come home, eat and sleep to start all over the next day? For years? To not take a few days off, because you have a flu and go to work instead, because you’re afraid of losing your job, if you don’t? Hm...
You've SO got it. These are oppressive times we live in. Everything in our lives is meticulously controlled, sometimes by outsiders but most of the time by ourselves, because we're permanently afraid we'll go wrong, fail, lose our job, etc. Everyone seems to be much more intolerant in this world that advertises individuality, and that everyone's entitled to their own opinion. ... *sighs* It's a frightful prospect. I think that's partly why the entertainment industry, like movies and football, is so lucrative. People's lives is really shitty and the only quality time they can have are a few hours of watching other people be happy.
..and I'll stop here because I can go awfully far on this.
*huggles-huggles*
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I'll "flip" through my collection and send you one, 'kay? :)
And are you joining us?
Of course!! Where do I have to subscribe? :)
About LJ taking notice, well, I guess if they were to ban slashers, their accounts number would drop dramatically. This is free reign for sharing hobbies and interests that don't harm other people, after all ;]
I do SO hope that you're right, hon. *clings to you and the rest of my f-list*
*snugglehugs*